Bruce does not have any part with my ministry nor I of his. Nor will I offer any personal info of him than that I already have shared as that info is found on the internet.
Bruce DeLay has an extensive ministry. I believe he started a home church or two, a few years back, and this may have or is possibly in the process of becoming a “real” church. He also has/had a radio show which also has kept him busy.
Bruce’s website had been offline since about October 2008, he says it was being updated/changed. For a short time it was up and operational, as of the end of Aug 2009. I discovered late in October of 2009 it was offline again. I do not know the reason, but his new radio website is still up. It has been 1 year, and it appears Bruce has abandoned his website.
Our relationship is strained at best. He contacted me asking me why I still have quotes from him up, when he asked to tone it down because he wanted to move to other things. He stated I could send folks to him privately if need be. When I explained to him that all his previous work is not accessible to the people who need it, because all his comments he made on the Ex-CiM forum are not available or even search engine found, he was amazed. He wrote many things to help people, and for it to be there even after he was done with it. He had hoped all his work would still be accessible for those who need it, thus why he didn’t me doing this here. The forum is still up, but no search engines nor links lead to it, and because of the negativity there I no longer link to it either. I discuss this elsewhere. He understood and let things be as they are, but I told him I would put the disclosure on the top showing are ministries are not connected.
In the late summer of 2010, Bruce and I emailed each other, concerning Randy claiming to phone call those whem had been offended by him, including Bruce DeLay. Here is what Bruce stated concerning this:
I told him that Randy lures folks back to him through such phone calls and other means, if those persons have not discovered or realized that Randy was disqualified as an elder. And it was that same subject that others had disagreed with me about. One which Randy and others would call as condemnation, when it is rather about consequence not condemnation. Here is what Bruce said about that:
I think Bruce is a great pastor, the best I ever seen or heard of, but the Old Testament prophesied that the end time shepherds would miss it. Thus the sad state of the church. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think I have it all either. But we all must recognize that we don’t have it, and that together in Christ we can obtain it, and that is the danger of the Church in Marshall and Randy Shankle, because they promote the extreme of exclusivism. And Bruce has done a tremendous amount of work and help to expose that.
While I have some serious issues with Bruce’s political work, I know he is a man of God, and loves the Lord and God’s people. This is why I make his material available, and sometimes also post information where I believe he err’s.
Bruce DeLay had been very active in helping ex-CiM members but in the last few years has withdrawn from that to pursue his current ministry. He has made public statements uncovering Randy’s errors and sins as well. He may still help in this regard but does not seek out that ministry. He is quite busy with his various ministries. Bruce was and is a member of an Ex-CiM forum, which forum is inactive, very little is said there any more.
The following are some of the public statements Bruce made on that forum. When I began this project (which took about 24 hours) I decided to copy all relevant posts Bruce made. Bruce by the way, had made over 500 comments on the forums over the years. I don’t know the percentage of those I had copied, but it was a lot, but I didn’t copy those that were just dialogue. The last part of editing, was removing the content that was least significant, because there was so much. I also deleted some content I thought was R rated. Some of it was Bruce relating stuff Randy had said and done, and in 1 or 2 occasions Bruce himself used words I would never use and I deem inappropriate, but these are seldom. I also cut out ones I completely disagreed with, but these also were very very few. And lastly because there was so much content, I deleted stuff that was important but not essential to the purpose here.
Bruce made statements such as:
This Forum is proving to be a key part in a multi-faceted strategy of the Lord. It has been putting the “heat” on things for a good while now. It talks about issues that were never verbalized in the past. People are reading and considering another side of things that was never before presented…
There should be plenty of past-posts from me on this forum to get info to interested readers.
So I know he wanted his words read. However, the Forum company, keeps this information hard to find. It’s there for any in the public to see, but search engines won’t get you there. And if you do get to the forum, the forum software won’t let you search past a few months, unless you pay for membership. Thus you would have to do what I did and read all of it! I won’t give the link publicly any more, which I discuss elsewhere. Therefore I make these statements available here. I deleted maybe 25-40% of what I initially copied.
The following statements are not in order of how he wrote them, but I tried to categorize them in the order of events in CiM and slightly in the events of time on the forum when the context deals with the forum. Some of his comments were to all, some were part of discussions between him and 1 person, or some between many people. Here are some of his comments:
The system he is operating in has no checks and balances. (Don’t give me the lame list of supposed ‘fathers’ he has – I have spoken to a long list over the years who ALL say that as soon as they bring any correction – he dumps their relationship. I have been around it way more than you.) He knows how to work those guys and pacify them – make them feel important.
RS – if he is to be restored – should do what he demands of other men – and get OUT of the ministry/leadership for a VERY long time and get his personal bearings with the Lord again. Then after making an honest effort to right his wrongs, he can begin his own personal restoration. My humble opinion is: he is so grossly disqualified himself from leadership that he may never be able to lead in the body of Christ again… But that remains to be seen – it’s a long road to answering that question. One thing I know – you can’t make a change while you’re still up front on the microphone all the time. It’s a long process.
Lastly – Does a law enforcement officer have unforgiveness when he locks up a menace? If his heart isn’t totally right, does he have to wait to go get a bully off the streets? Nonsense. The difference between us is – you haven’t seen RS in the Light of truth just yet. You know the teaching: Spiritual authority – Domestic authority – Civil authority. If a man does not regard the first two, God will bring the third kind to bear. Don’t be surprised if National news publications, investigative reporters, etc are sent to expose hidden things. They won’t be sent by the devil… but by the Lord.
Whatever God intended RS to be – I do know this: He disqualified himself regarding any involvement in my life.
My personal opinion is that he has disqualified himself to the Body of Christ at large, and that without a prolonged season of genuine restoration, that will never change.
His calling involved his prayer “God, give me men”. Well, God gave him hundreds of precious, wonderful men over the years. Leaders. Top of the line men who left all to follow Christ and receive discipleship/fatherhood. Where are they now? MOST have been through a similar experience as myself.
I learned a lot in Marshall. One thing I learned since my departure is: Col. 3:21 “Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.” Almost every place in the NT, the Greek word used for ‘father’ is ‘pater’. But here it is: ‘kurios’ which is defined as: ‘supremecy, sumpreme in authority, that is, controller.’ This word is normally reserved for refering to God. When a man adopts this type of fathering, the result is that his children (‘teknon’ here) become discouraged : ‘spiritless; disheartened’.
Men have certain roles within fatherhood, but when a man tries to take GOD’s Father-role, he ends up killing his own children spiritually. (speaking of spiritual children, esp). Ironically, the ‘discouragement, disheartened and spiritless condition’ is brought on by RS’s control techniques (by definition). Then the son in the faith is told he has an ‘evil spirit’… Talk about confusion! The individual can see no way out of that condition, and loses hope in the process. It is Perpetual – unless you break out of that cycle and get out of Marshall. The one blaming is the very one making it all happen – convinced all the time that he’s right in ‘fathering’ that way. The long-time fruit at CiM speaks for itself.
Here’s a quick list of a few extra-biblical things used at CiM:
1. “the violent take it by force” (very misused throughout Charis-mania everywhere – not only CiM)
2. “Jesus didn’t die for you because he loved you – he died to obey his Father” (What about Gal 2:20 ‘I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, WHO LOVED ME, AND GAVE HIMSELF FOR ME’ ???)
3. “the Set man” (Has now become a justification for autocracy
1) “Touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm”. (1 Chron 16; Ps 105) This is commonly used to make certain leaders untouchable and unaccountable.
BUT – EVERY CHRIST-ian is “mine anointed” (‘Christ’=anointed)! I contend that Christ is that Anointed one spoken of, and that all Christians are ‘anointed’ ones. God is jealous over you – not just well-known big shots! (Also – Prophets who prophesy falsely lose their protected status.) Paul said that if we destroy God’s house, he will destroy us. (1 Cor 3). He will bring judgement how He desires.
2) “Obey those who have the rule over you” – Heb 13. Must be ballanced with other scripture such as where Paul says to follow him… AS he follows the Lord. If leaders stop following Christ – they are no longer to be followed. They can disqualify themselves. This is not if they make a few mistakes – but if they willfully go another way and abuse the authority God gave them.
There is a classic “bait and switch” that occurs with these border-line cult leaders. It gives them the appearance to many as still being a christian ministry/church. (And the fact that Christians can be some of the most gullible, naive people on the planet helps, too!) People hear the Bible taught with conviction – and come to receive the truth. It is subtle at first, But they get something different than what was advertised…
Example: BAIT: “Die to self, take up your cross and follow Me” – (Jesus). SWITCH: “Die to self, lose everything, and follow ME: (RS !)” BAIT: “Submit to God’s authority” SWITCH: “I AM God’s authority (RS), and If you EVER stop submitting to MY unquestionable authority, you will be cast into outer darkness!” BAIT: “We must train up disciples / sons and send them out to do the Father’s will”. SWITCH “I AM your father (RS), and now you will help me build my kingdom. You will never be quite mature enough to be trusted, so you will always need me to “father” you a little more. I will never send you – unless it will further my own purposes. You are now stuck in a spiritual twighlight zone forever. ” It reminds me of the old show “Sanford and Son”… “One of these days LaMont, ALL THIS will be yours!” (A junkyard).
I never truly conquered the fear-of-man and man-pleaser thing in my life until I broke free of RS, lost my position, long-time close relationships, my reputation with all the people there, and left town. It was as if God used my whole time in Marshall for the one big test at the end: “Will he choose God over man?” I think I finally passed that test. It has changed me into a stronger man. God will use very difficult things to shape us into the people we must be for future events/ministries.
RS once shared some very personal information with me – about his divorce with Rama. (He and I were very close for approx 10 years) What he shared was ultimately the thing he used to justify their split. He basically drove her away from the Lord through legalism, then condemned her for it. He still uses the same techniques today on people. He will prophesy their destruction, then help fulfill it. He will pressure them until they crack – then say “I told you so”. I don’t need to tell details on this forum about the divorce with Rama. But it makes more sense now, especially in light of how RS treated Gloria (his 2nd wife) during her fight with breast cancer. She was treated in the same way you described Rama. Even more so, because now he was in the top position of the church, and could not be challenged. It was all about him and his ministry – rather than about her. I could really write a book about my private conversations with RS during that time. We warred over it.
I traveled back to Marshall for Glorias’ funeral. (Not even a real funeral service to honor her – just a graveside.) I had to endure many people there who were angered by my attendence. It was actually hostile – one guy gave me a hard shoulder as he walked past and then stared at me as if wanting to fight. ( But 2 specific people I remember came and stood with me in love at the gaveside service). But the selfish display RS put on at that service — It was unbelievable. He made the whole thing about HIM. Her death became his stage to gain the favor of people… I would have walked out of the thing but for my respect for Gloria. Maybe some others remember that day. It was horrible. Then he left his children and traveled far away and remarried a woman 2 weeks after the funeral.
The thing that complicates forgiveness is when the person is not sorry and they will continue to harm others. It seems to me that forgiveness is a decision which usually has some action (even if that action is as simple as to stop thinking about the injury as much as before), and may or may not be accompanied by feelings. It certainly starts with a decision, I do know that. Sometimes it’s easy to forgive when the other repents… but our example is to forgive (decide to do it), even if they don’t. That’s how Jesus did it.
Jesus forgave EVERYONE on the cross. But only those who appropriate His forgiveness by faith will experiance it for themselves. It’s like that with us. If I forgive someone, but if they don’t receive it (maybe to receive it would be to admit their wrongdoing – and they’re too stubborn for that), then I enjoy the release – but they do not. They demons leave me alone, but they are still in their guilt.
Also – I can forgive, but that doesn’t mean everything is restored as it was. example: A child molester may be forgiven, but I’m not going to have him babysit my children… Consequences, proper punishment, justice, all those things are intact – even if forgiveness is given.
Forgiveness is not IN-compatible with consequences. If you choose not to subject yourself, your home, your immediate family, etc to the on-going drama of someone’s lifestyle, then OK. Others who continue to feel sorry for the person, yet do nothing constructive toward their deliverance – become Inablers of that bad behavior.
God has a LOT of Grace with us in our sin… but there comes a point if we continue in that sin, when He will not Fellowship us. Our sin is so great that – as Light – He cannot fellowship our Darkness anymore. Where’s that line? Only He knows… and Only YOU will know where that line is – when dealing with the person who will not change. As it is with God, so it is with us… If that person wants renewed fellowship badly enough, they will make the choice to forsake their sin and choose life. They have actually cut themselves off from the relationship, and if we coddle them beyond God’s Grace, then we just encourage in sin.
There is a real place called Hell. If we don’t tell people the truth in this life, and show them how sin separates them from God and from those whom they love – then they will be very surprised when they find themselves in Hell one day. Keeping people from Reality – that is NOT true Love. (Whom the Father LOVETH He chasteneth… see Hebrews 12)
But being justified may be the key to understanding this forgiveness thing. Grace is unconditional, but justification involves Justice. It involves the JUST thing. It may involve consequenses. God believes in, for example, jail time for criminals. They may be forgiven, and their fellowship restored with God via repentence. But it’s only ‘Just’, or ‘Right’ that they complete their sentence. If someone is a habitual offender, we may forgive them 70 X 7, but they are not truly Justified – until Justice is done. The sting of Justice helps them to decide to stop their wrong behavior. (If it hurts when I touch fire – I stop touching it). That might involve paying restitution to someone who has been ripped-off, etc.
If a child breaks a window maliciously, then they should repent, confess, etc – but that is just the start. They should pay to fix the window as well. When the new window is installed and paid for, then things are made right (JUST), and their integrity and believability can be restored in time. Respect and Trust must be re-earned if one has violated someone else. It’s Not automatic.
Here’s the thing: Justice WILL be served on people who have done us wrong. That Justice will either be served upon a substitue on their behalf (Jesus Christ); or they will receive that just judgment ultimately when Christ returns. example: Jesus said It would be better to have a millstone tied around one’s neck and dropped into the sea than what will befall someone who hurts little kids…
Here’s the Religiously-Incorrect part: Our anger can eat us alive if we’re not careful. Knowing that God’s Justice will be visited upon Everyone at some point, helps me to let some of my steam off – like a relief valve. God’s anger… His Wrath… is MUCH Greater than my anger. When sinful men violently hung His only begotten, and greatly Beloved Son on a cruel cross, The Father withheld his anger that day. I believe that actually accounts for the rocks splitting, the earthquake, the sun darkening, etc. His anger shook the earth. (and it will again) BUT He with held it that day. He still allows Jesus to bear man’s sin. Yet – when the “great and terrible Day of the Lord” finally arrives… and there is no more time to receive Christ… God’s Justice will be visited upon mankind. Satan himself will receive the Justice he so well deserves as well. For every molested child, every tormented person, every painful disease – satan will pay an eternal price in the lake of fire where he will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev 20:10).
Knowing God’s Justice will take place – helps me to turn my anger loose. (altho sometimes anger can be a Godly motivator when handled properly) If a person never repents to me – one day they will either taste God’s wrath, or repent to Jesus. Either way – they can’t just ignore thier sin, acting like what they did to me never happened Forever. They’ll be forced to deal with it one day if they don’t deal with it voluntarily. “For-Give” partially means to “Give something Before”. Like Jesus did on the cross – we are to give forgiveness to others BEFORE they ever repent. That is LOVE. Knowing that God will surely deal with the end result – that helps me to forgive ahead of time.
Unlike you – I’m not enamoured with RS’ image. I do not think he repents when corrected. I used to believe that. I think he only gets better at getting away with whatever he wants. I don’t harbor unforgiveness. I dealt with that about a year after leaving TX. Your definition of forgiveness is religious. You want me to believe that unless I get back in contact/relationship with him, then I haven’t forgiven him. Same-O party line. You need to go back to the scriptures on that one. That’s just not how it works.
I had plenty of meetings over the last year I was there. I’m done. I’m on the 3rd step of Matt 18 – “Tell it to the Church”.
I guess I see false doctrine as not just an honest mistake in teaching or an error in the sense of incomplete info or something. I am refering to false doctrine that is twisted on purpose to achieve something greater. The false teacher may not start out with a clear intent, but the spirits involved certainly do. They exploit the problems in a persons’ life (insecurities, etc as you mentioned) and without the proper authority structure, there are no checks and balances. The autocrat rises to a place of authority that is almost considered ‘divine’. This is where Cults are born. In this case, the doctrines were skewed to strengthen a position of control, which creates a false authority system – a religious system.
I’d say that “divine authority” became an idol in TX. Many people along the way were sacrificed to that idol. It became a means to build a personal kingdom. It lost the Divine aspect when God’s “most high” position was replaced by a man. Plurality of Eldership would have helped – and to a degree it did for a while until plurality was slowly replaced with ‘yes men’ (via the choices of each one personally to quench the voice of the Lord within and compromise over and over… a little here, a little there.) Then autocracy, with jezebel ruling from the shadows, was finally achieved.
I lived / worked with Randy for about 12 years. The majority of that time we were closer than most of the relationships I’ve ever had. We traveled together, administrated and ministered together, many times went places – just the two of us (that’s not very common for him). I’ve been alone with him for long periods of time and seen another side to him than many get to see. My wife wet-nursed his infant son in the middle of the night when Gloria’s milk had not yet come in. (we have a daughter born about the same time as Jarred) We had a real relationship, Whyme. I’m not a person looking on from afar with opinions and philosophies. I love Randy very much. God used him greatly in my life.
I simply have a better idea of what it’s going to take to make a dent in this control spirit that drives him now. I war against what he has become. It is destroying him (just as the scripture says it will 1 Cor 3:17) He is dangerous to the Bride of Christ right now. I want people to avoid the trouble he can bring them. As long as he’s “got the microphone and the check”, he can’t change. He even preaches that himself – but is unwilling to do the very thing he requires of others. It is insecurity and fear. Most would never think he is insecure, but insecurity haunts him.
1) CiM has de-volved into a blend of psychology and the scriptures (with almost more emphasis on psychology). RS always fancied himself a shade-tree psychologist. He likes to read up on it, study it, try it out on people, etc.
2) Divorce (as in Missmyfamily’s situation), has become commonplace at CiM. It has become something the ‘elders’ can either give a thumbs up or down to, depending on how it may benefit them. But GOD HATES IT. Why? Because GOD LOVES PEOPLE and He knows that divorce Hurts people. GOD does not take it lightly – it has Serious implications. Having a problem with divorce reveals a lot about a Church and it’s leaders. CiM has developed a theology on divorce, which is based more on RS’ past experiences than on the Bible. The result? A lot of marriages ending in divorce at CiM over the past 10 -15 yrs. A lot of relationships between bretheren ending in divorce as well…
The public denouncing of certain people started years ago. At first it was simply an attempt to follow the Matt 18:17 principle of church discipline: “Tell it to the church”. But the power of holding someone’s reputation in your hands can be intoxicating. A milestone where RS began to abuse this power was when something called “The Family Forum” began. RS would get 3 or 4 couples on stage and do a talk-show style interview deal. He had a secret agenda of getting into one specific area with one specific couple. People with whom he had already been couseling privately and was frustrated with a lack of results. The people usually thought they had been chosen randomly out of the audience. This format went on weekly for over my last year. It continued long after I left, I think. Many people’s private, dirty laudry was aired in detail in front of the whole church. It was terrible. Past relationships, comments previously only made in confidence, etc. Here’s one mild example: One woman was led into speaking about her marital love lfe (RS is good at getting people to talk). When she said her husband had always been a bad kisser – a real disappointment to her… I watched her husband’s respect level drop thru the floor in front of everyone. RS had led her into publically dishonoring her husband. Both she and he left the platform in guilt. But RS felt like “Dr Phil” or something (There was no Dr Phil back then – but you know what I mean). This man was an up and comuing leader in the church, whom RS wanted to keep in check. RS is so good at all this stuff – he must have demonic help. Nobody spends his time calculating this stuff and figuring out all his moves like a chess-match 9 or 10 moves ahead of the game. But RS absolutely does. He is the ‘master’. My ever-increasing efforts to get RS to stop it was part of the reason I was pushed out of the church in the timing I was.
The ‘Family Forum’ fiasco broke down a lot of ethical/moral boundaries in the people, which allowed things to go much further in the years which followed. I have heard specifics from others about how bad it has gotten since I left. After my resistance was silenced, there was no one left in leadership – only Yes Men, or men with lesser strength whose dissention was too weak to slow RS down.
One week from today (on April 23), there’s going to be a meeting held in Oklahoma City. I was invited. I was called and emailed many times. This will be a meeting with RS and many of the men across the nation who have been affiliated with – and under his ministry.
During the first few contacts I was told (and I am using their terms:) that this was a meeting to take the 3rd step of Matt 18 regarding RS and “Tell it to the Church”. They said they had been to “him and him alone”, but he didn’t receive it. Then they took “2 or 3 witnesses”. Now it was past the point of whether he would receive their correction – they were going to tell it to the church. (of course, it was going to be a leaders meeting – with RS. If they were actually going to tell the church, wouldn’t these men stand in the pulpit at CIM, or at least in their own pulpits in Iowa, Ohio, Michigan, etc? Or get on the internet as I have, and “tell it to the Church”?)
I told them I was not coming – but at their insistance, I said “I’ll pray about it.” I had some hope in the beginning… but then I received the letter and info in the mail regarding the time/place. That official invitation said it was going to be a meeting of “Restoration and Reconcilliation”. Yikes. Seems like it made a 180 turn from when it began.
I hope the meeting has some positive effect, but at this point, I have little reason to think it can. RS has the ability to to turn the whole thing into being about him – or at least his ‘restoration’. If he controls the people and the terms of any ‘restoration’, you all know what a sham that will be. But odds are high that IF the meeting even ends up finding him guilty – RS will set his own judgement. He’s just that smooth.
I am hoping that the men grow a strong spine and have the nerve do what needs to be done. RS needs to be sat completely down from ministry for an extended, indefinite period of time. He needs to receive NO money from ‘ministry’. He needs to get a job and work. Men need to take over the local authority of CIM with out-side apostolic authority. They need to come in for a year and do several things: 1) Visit the families in their homes (NOT in the office where they’ve been raked over the coals so many times), and probe them for the real facts/stories. Listen to the people in a safe counseling environment. 2) During that year, preach and teach CIM in the areas where RS and others have taught them false doctrine and error. 3) After a yr, shut down the church and sell the property. The money should be distributed to the remaining families in CIM, as well as to compensate the men who take a year to go help/teach them. (And I’m Not interested.)
It’s not about RS anymore – it’s about Jesus Christ and His Name in the community. It’s about the sheep who have been brow-beaten, ‘fleeced’, etc. If a team of men want to take RS in and restore him over a long process under their wise counsel and hands-on relationship… Then great. I do hope they can help him.
I’m praying for these guys to be strong and to do the Will of their FATHER. This will take drastic measures to even get started on the right track.
This Forum is proving to be a key part in a multi-faceted strategy of the Lord. It has been putting the “heat” on things for a good while now. It talks about issues that were never verbalized in the past. People are reading and considering another side of things that was never before presented.
Some folks have a hard time understanding this mode of communication. I remember when a move swept through CIM regarding “dialogue”. It was said that God wanted less ‘monologue’ – and more dialogue in the Body of Christ. Yet when men tried to have REAL dialogue in leadership meetings – it was viewed as rebellion. Soon the hope of dialogue reverted back into oppressive monologue once again… And any public ‘dialogue’ was carefully contrived and controlled by leaders who had a pre-determined agenda.
I’ve said it before – but: THANK YOU Pearlz, for taking the time to initiate this mode of communication for people. This forum has allowed people to speak their hearts. I’ve had people contact me recently – expressing their frustration with me over my lack of control over what is said on this forum… DUH! I have NO control over this – and would Never desire to control it. Religion has made it hard for them to assimilate this. Old-order Church Leaders are accustomed to holding all the cards. In their world, they stand behind a pulpit for hours, talking and talking – unchallenged by the peons in the pews. They go home to a protected environment where phone calls are not answered and mail is thrown in the trash. They carefully select with whom and where their private meetings will be. THERE IS NO VIABLE DIALOGUE in their life – not even with their own family. This is the state of the modern Autocrat in todays’ churches in America. They are so insecure about their authority and leadership that they must carefully control everything around them. But as they keep seeking to save it – they are surely losing it. You will either lose it willingly – and then have it restored, or you will lose it unwillingly and never be trusted with leadership again.
Those old days are over. True authority is by God’s Grace, not by man’s ability to obtain and retain it. Leadership is not just Positional – it is Effectual. It is real or it isn’t. The followers determine the leaders by their voluntary willingness to follow – or Not. The next move of God is all about “WE”, not just “ME”. The old order Church is all about famous men and their ministries – “Celebrity Christianity” I call it. But the future is all about Jesus Christ. If what we do is void of the Nature of Christ – then it is void of His presence.
I went back in my personal emails to last August, and found 37 different people who have emailed me privately due to my page hosted by doma concerning RS, And due to this forum. None of these are regular posters here, but many are readers. They are literally from all over the nation.
3 of the 37 were negative toward me – pro-RS backers. 34 were grateful for the info I shared, and agreed wholeheartedly. I would say that at least 4 – 6 were men with families about to move to Marshall. All changed their plans due to my sharing the other side of the story, and due to them reading more on the forum… They know it’s not just 1 nut who is mad at RS – no, there are many credible people with stories that ring true to them because of their own red flags inside. I just encourage them to listen to that still, small voice inside that is already warning them…
I have spoken to leaders in CiM satelite churches who have contacted me. This has been very productive. Just the fact that someone is willing to discuss the inner questions of people – in a non-threatening atmosphere (via email), has been helpful. In my day, you were never allowed to question ‘authority’ – and especially never talk about those things among yourselves – not even husb/wives. So this forum and emails have helped people to be more free with truth and legitimate concerns.
This forum will not go on forever. I don’t know how long… but I wanted to share some info that should encourage everyone for now.
Pearlz threw a pebble into the pond about a year ago… The first ripple was in the Marshall News-Messenger newspaper forum. The second ring was when she began this forum. The third appeared when the letter I wrote began to attract notice – in conjunction with internet searches via Domas’ extensive website.
If I’m even close to being right, I think we will see the next ripple sometime soon. It will be wider and farther-reaching than any so far. New names may begin to appear on this forum. I want to encourage EVERYONE who has involvement to please participate when this happens. Everyone has unique perspectives and can effect new folks in different ways. Let’s be patient with people, not cram too much stuff down their throats, listen to what they are REALLY saying instead of reacting to their words too quickly, etc. Remember – they can go back and read a lot of past posts on the forum, and there’s little need to rehash a lot of things.
One of the main things I am noticing about helping people in this – is that the shear fact that they discover a group of people who have gone through the same thing is sometimes enough to make the difference. They don’t necessarily need a ‘Therapist’ ( or as some say the word: ‘The rapist’ [ that's a joke, y'all ] ). They just need a place to vent – a safe place of common experience – some of our TIME – and a little encouargement along the way. This forum has already done a lot of these things for people.
It is so crazy how 2 people can be sitting in church on the same row every Sunday, both having the same discerning thoughts, But because of FEAR… never being able to openly discuss their honest concerns about the problems in the church. This forum has provided a good place for that process. I hope it will continue, and I hope we can get even better at it. And again – I hope all are willing to participate. Everyone is needed.
Let me tell you a quick story. And YES, There is a Point to the story. ;-) In Jan of ’91 My dad in Oklahoma had been very sick for a long time – in and out of the hospital with cancer, etc.
This time-period was right at the end of the Randy/Mike/Jerry era at CIM / Solid Rock. I was asked one day by MB to come out to JC’s house and “referee” a meeting between RS, MB, and JC, who were having serious conflicts. (Well, I knew that if I was already being asked to “referee”, that it was going to probably be a tough one.) The 4 of us sat down in JC’s den – out on Lake O the Pines… And for some reason (not sure why), I said the following: “Before we start the meeting, I’d like to ask Randy a personal question. Randy, Do you need me? And before you answer – I want you to know that I need You.” RS didn’t even pause to think about it: “I don’t need you. If you leave, I’ll get another one just like you.” Well – our meeting went downhill from there. Nothing was accomplished, and as you know, the 3 men finally split up…As the next few months went by, I assumed the primary role of leadership at CIM. RS / MB / JC all drifted apart, and RS rarely came around the office anymore. The 3 elders had talked me into “taking the church” before they split up. (RS’ absence lasted about 18 mos). But one day – as I was warring with the devil’s pressure in my head – I was thinking of how RS said “I don’t need you…” And the Lord reminded me of the scripture in 1 Cor. “The eye cannot say to the hand ‘I have NO need of you…’”. The Lord seemed to say: “RS can say he doesn’t need you a million times, But he CANNOT truly say it. Not in truth, he can’t”. Well – that ended my being down-in-the-dumps.
RS tried to come between the Sheriff’s marriage and My marriage just before both our families moved away. His statement to a group of leaders was: “Those two boys (Craig and I) might leave, But their wives will stay with Me.” Well – he was very wrong about our two wives! Any man who tries to split up my marriage will regret it. How arrogant can a man be?
Interesting – When I was told “You will never minister in this church again”, RS never could tell me why. When I asked other leaders to address the scripture: Not to receive an accusation against an elder – but by 2 or 3 witnesses; no witnesses and no charges were ever given. All it boiled down to at the time was: RS wanted me out. I had stopped being his ‘boy’, his bobble-head, his yes man. His best reason was: that I had an ‘evil spirit’ (no more detailed info, nothing). RS – in one of our last mtgs told the other 2 elders: “It’s either he goes or I go”. Well, we all know who will win that contest… RS every time. But still – no reason for dismissing an elder in good standing.
When I knew it was time to leave CiM, I got a LOT of flack from people. The primary question they would ask – yet it was used as a statement, not a question – was this: “Was it GOD for you to come to Marshall (CiM)?” I wish a had a nickle for every time I heard that one. But one day I actually heard the statement – seemingly for the first time… This question subtly inserts the assumption that: It IS GOD to be at CiM.
Our speech had begun to betray our beliefs. It could be applied to any subject. “Is it GOD for your life?” This question is dangerous. The question was supposed to be: Was it God’s Will to do this or that… (move to Marshall, whatever). But leverage could be gained by equating GOD with something God had told you to do years earlier.
Biblically – God; and God’s Will are 2 Different things. His Will in time can change depending upon man’s will. In the context, or under the umbrella of God’s Will – different things can happen. (ie: Jonah to Nineveh – “Repent or God will destroy you…” They repented and God did not destroy them. )
Yet GOD Himself Never Changes. He’s the same Yest/Today/Forever. The subtle question: “Was it GOD for you to come here?” is very important. It is the tip of an iceberg of religious error – lying just below the surface. Error that compounds upon itself and grows worse over time. Doctrines and traditions of men are formed this way. (‘If this is true… then this must be true as well…’ etc.) It is the essence of building a bad foundation – instead of upon the Person of Christ Himself. His WILL becomes a subjective thing that religious leaders can manipulate in order to control the people. It’s the same kind of thing Martin Luther rebelled against when the Catholic Church required paying indulgences… It’s nothing new – just packed a little differently.
I can see now what has been propagated as truth since I left Marshall. No wonder some folks there hate me. (The ones who don’t can smell BS when they step in it) If you say things long enough and often enough, they become truth to the people who swallow it, Jerry. Perception becomes relative truth. There was never a specific charge raised against me while I was there. RS preached for 3 full hours on “Mark and Avoid them…” – all the Church Discipline scriptures – and then surprised me by walking back to where I was sitting and asking me to get up and address the people. RS is too smart to directly accuse me of something that I haven’t done. He infered to the whole church that night, by the way he set it up – that I was the fulfillment of those scriptures – without ever saying what I had ever done. There was no way I could get up and talk about issues without bringing RS into account. I was flatfooted, and like I said before, I’d had my spine systematically removed. He knew that and he was Baiting me to bring his name up that night in church. I was so beat down by then – after months of trying to jump through his hoops to get back in good graces… I couldn’t think straight. (As it turns out – my lack of speaking was the best for me at the time. I would never win a verbal debate in that situation) RS just kept saying I had a ‘wrong spirit’. He even had me wondering. He and Gloria came over and prayed for me one day – to cast it out. I was a very willing subject! I was worn down – tired of all the conflict with RS. Why didn’t the evil spirit go? Is God not able to do it? Of course not. It was because I didn’t have one. My real problem was I knew too much and I was too close to RS for comfort. I was starting to ask key questions. When a son comes to maturity – (as even RS told me I had) – instead of sending them, RS gets insecure and begins to attack them. He has to control their future. There was no need to slam me – he could have just blessed me and let me go. But his pride and insecurity make that hard for him. Who is next in line these days? I’m out of touch. Are you 4th or 5th in line?
BTW – It was NOT a money issue when I left. Is THAT what you were told? You’ve GOT to be Kidding! That comment alone on your part shows how uninformed you really were. You have swallowed the hook, bro. I never learned that the horse deal was a rip off until a year or so after moving away. I knew it wasn’t ethical for RS to renig on his committment to help us sell the horses, but I didn’t know the info back then, that I know now. As I said before – that was MY BAD – I shouldn’t have been so gullible to ‘invest’ in a scam. My mistake was in over riding my own heart – to try and help a brother, RS, get started in the horse bidness. It had nothing to do with my leaving at the time. Everything I said in my post about how the El Moongi horse deal happened was the truth. Apparently you haven’t yet read it.
As I have racked my brain to remember that night in the ‘big tent’, I know that I did say that one reason I was leaving was because I couldn’t justify taking a salary on staff anymore, since I wasn’t doing anything (no ministry). Remember that?
What I COULDN’T say is that RS had told me weeks, maybe 2 months earlier – No counseling appointments allowed, no phone appointments, no bishopping, no teaching in any services… THAT WAS HIS DECISION NOT MINE !!! RBade brought me RS’ edict (RS couldn’t stand to be around my evil spirit. AND if I ever said this in public – he could just deny telling RB to tell me! Crazy! )The church probably thought I was a lazy slob! (Unless they considered the previous 10 yrs) RB brought word that I was to be in my office during office hours (8-5 I think), but I could not do anything! Later, JA told me to leave the property if RS came in the office… I counted lots of paperclips in those days, waiting for RS to ‘like’ me again (that’s usually what happened in years prior). I wrote RS some ‘son’ letters, asking for clarity, anything. Finally I started just studying the Scriptures everyday. It was a real time of God’s voice to me. He met me in His word and I began to see some truth from HIM.
But The church was left with the impression that I was a bum, I guess. Boy, the one with the ‘authority’ and the microphone sure can make the rules, can’t he? Do you think this is a lie too? I can’t afford to live my life like RS was requiring me to. That’s a big reason I had to go.
I had RS on my caller ID twice 7 yrs ago when I moved up here. I had just spent about 1 year of him refusing to return my calls, answer my letters, or even come into the church office if I was in there. (I had an evil spirit – or hadn’t you heard?) The last time I was in the auditorium, I was publically forbidden to ever speak in the church again. The 1st Sunday I was gone, the sermon was all about me being the ‘dragon who dragged his tail’… (no matter that I moved up here and spent 3 yrs alone…) Then last April, RS tried to call me during the mtg in OKC and left a messege. He was trying to get C Hill off his back. Before I returned his call – I called another brother who was at the meeting. He said that RS told everyone he had talked to me and straightened it all out… Whaaaa? We had not even spoken. SAME-O SAME-O… Why would I want to talk with someone who has a distorted version of reality? He would simply tell everyone that we talked, and that I’m back ‘with’ him again – and I certainly am not… I don’t want to give any impressions that I endorse or validate his ministry. The scriptures on ‘Mark and AVOID’ would include talking on the phone, I’m sure.
In my last real conversation with RS, way back in early ’98, I made it very clear that I was leaving. He said (loose quote) “Here’s how it works: God tells me His will for you – and then I will let you know what it is.” He was telling me that it was God’s will for me to remain in Marshall – and I was saying the opposite (time to go). I told him that I knew he had always believed that ‘God’s will’ came through him to his ‘sons’ – but I was glad he finally came out and said it plainly. Of course I would have to follow the One who died on the cross for me, not a man who was trying to control me… That’s a no-brainer for any clear-thinking person.
Now this control thing has become litteral doctrine there, with many different applications – spoken openly without hesitation, because there is no voice to challenge it Biblically.
Realizing that any man can become a controller has become a priority to me. After leaving TX, I was totally out of ministry, etc for over 3 yrs. Even when God started pulling me back into things, I didn’t trust myself. For a while I was hamstrung by the fear that I may become the very thing I warned others about. I figured I may have a bad seed in me by association. I went overboard with finances, relationships, authority situations, etc to make sure I was OK. But that fear had to be overcome. The enemy was using it against me to neutralize me. About 3 years ago things started to change. Now I am quietly watching other people around me for that weird submission, watching my own inner response to any ‘ata-boys’ I get from men, etc. If there is a sign of control, I will likely notice it. I know the signs very well. I also have other sharp men who are not hesitant to point it out if they see it. Beyond that – you have to move forward and deal with any problems as they may arise. There is waaay too much to do at this time to remain paralyzed by fear or past injuries.
I had the hardest time making decisions for a long time after leaving CIM. When we first came back to Oklahoma, I took my family over to Church one Sun in Claremore. Remember Glen Shaffer? I told him – “I was not ‘sent’, I just left CIM”. He looked me right in the eye – and assured me that I didn’t have to be ‘sent’ by RS. He told me all the behind the scenes dirt he went through with RS. Together, we went through all the long list of names of men whom RS supposedly was submitted to, but then got rid of if they ever tried to correct him. Then he gave me a chilling statement: “It will take you 5 yrs to get over this”. I hated that. I did not agree. But now, I’ve been gone almost 7 yrs. I must say – Glen was pretty right. Maybe it was 4 yrs, but it took longer than I figured.
I went through a long period of indecision – much like what you’re saying. But all the time I spent alone with God and apart from people (prob 3 yrs) really helped. I am BACK now – and I do have my passion intact. One of those passions is to stand up for people who are down – and are being kicked by spiritual bullies. Sometimes I overdo it – but I intend to help those oppressed by abusive false spiritual authority.
After I left Texas, we got a few phone calls from RS on our caller ID. A couple of those calls may of been from his children, but he left a messege on one call. He acted like my long-lost friend: “Hey – How ya doin’ buddy!?” He had just spent almost a year attacking me, my marriage, my children, etc and then acts like an old friend? (Sometimes I honestly wonder if he’s messed up in the head… It’s like a split-personality or something.) I never returned those calls. That’s one way to say “No” to that spirit. For 6 months before I moved away, he would never answer any of my calls, my requests for a meeting, or my gut-wrenching letters (he later told me he never read any of them – he just through them in the trash.) This from a ‘Father in the Faith’? That is surely a bogus crock. Thank God our Heavenly Father is NOTHING like that! This from a man who called my wife and I in the middle of the night because his infant son was crying and his wife’s milk had not come in yet. My wife (who was nursing our own baby at the time) gladly went out to their house and wet-nursed his son in the wee hours, until GS’s milk came in the next evening… This is the same man who tries to split up my marriage – telling men in a leadership meeting that if I moved away from Marshall, my wife “would remain with HIM”? (Not that she’d stay at the Church – But: “with HIM”). He had GROSSLY over-estimated his little-old self…! Then my daughters start getting letters in the mail from their best friends and others who were required by ‘youth leaders’(certain ‘elders’ wives)in one of their youth mtgs to basically copy a form letter telling my girls that they could not associate with them because our family was ‘serving the Devil’ now? Just because I had announced we were moving away…? That’s pretty twisted. You could tell by the way the letters were written that the kids didn’t even want to write them – but they feared that they would be singled out next. The stories of betrayal by RS are endless. Financial betrayals… don’t get me started. All kinds of mind games and BS that I am frankly embarassed I put up with as long as I did. I was under the doctrine of it all – feeling religiously obligated to obey a false application of the scriptures. I have to admit my own fault in the deal. Satan has no authority over you – unless you give it to him.
I write these things simply to say – Other people (like me) understand what you’ve been through. Let your courage increase now. Forgive RS and all the rest – BUT Speak the truth. Someone recently tried to tell me that if I spoke the truth, then I had not forgiven. That is just another attempt at Control, used to try and shut you up. Don’t fall for such things – and stop being intimidated by the phantom of what RS used to be. If you saw him, you’d see that he’s a sad, diminished figure of his old self now. I hope he’ll make it out of his mire, but all this stuff has a way of coming back on the person who did bad things to others. It may be a hard road. All that is up to the One who judges such things. Serve the Lord Jesus. Fear the Lord – not man.
It was easier – MUCH easier for me not to deal with RS after leaving. It took me about a year to forgive and forget. But there came a day when the Lord met me strongly and I was washed clean. But like I said – after a few years, I started having people contact ME! NOT me contacting them. I would not get into it with people. I usually would not even answer them. Then one day about a year ago, I was contacted by someone I had never met, who was devestated by a CURRENT situation at CIM (not 5 – 35 yrs ago!). I checked out their story before believing it. Their situation was consistant with old patterns at CIM, and so wicked that I could not turn my head away. I decided to answer their questions as honestly as I could. I will not air their situation here – that’s their story, and it may be too hard for them to tell right now. But There are several other major deals – also recent, not old days – that are on the table. But only one view is presented at CIM. That is RS’ version of what happened. Then if the other side comes out – everyone is conditioned to believe it must be a lie. RS wouldn’t lie. RS is “the ONLY Prophet of our time”, right? (That’s one that has been declared recently to folks to justify false doctrine.)
Within 2 years after leaving Marshall, I spoke to someone who was directly involved with the purchase when RS bought his 1st stallion: ‘El Moongi’. He was there when the stallion was sold to RS. (By the way, I was present at RS’ house years later when Moongi was ‘put down’ by the Vet) Anyway, the person I spoke to told me that El Moongi, who was a great champion of horse shows in his own right – was NOT a good breeder. He had been proven to have BAD SEED. He had a genetic defect and could not reproduce horses as good as him or those in his line above him. They told RS that important info before he purchased El Moongi! That’s how he was able to buy a 2 million dollar award-winning Arabian stallion for a couple hundred thousand (or whatever). I remember RS telling us how that God had blessed him with a great stallion for a small price. Now I knew WHY. It wasn’t a ‘blessing’. There was a logical reason why he was so cheap.
Part of the ‘deal’ when our partnership bought 3 female horses was the bonus of ‘free lifetime breedings’ to the great stallion ‘El Moongi’. (I was also present, when one of El Moongi’s first colts was destroyed – via a 357 magnum to the head, and buried in RS’ pasture with a backhoe. That colt was the one who was born with so many physical deformaties (you could see his organs through his transparent skin), that he had to be ‘put down’. It sent RS into an emotional talespin for several weeks. I DID NOT KNOW at the time that RS had lied to all of us about El Moongi’s ability to reproduce high-quality offspring. No wonder his conscience was bothering him! It wasn’t an attack of the Devil. It was his lies catching up with him.
When I moved, I gave away the remaining shares of my 10k unit of ‘stock’ to be distributed to the other members of the horse partnership. I don’t know what happened from there. I hope they all struck it Rich – but the odds are slim to none, I’d think…
Back before things went crazy – the technique you mention (securing the wife before investing in the husband) would have never been used. This is a perfect example of how a man’s belief can become a doctrine – and ultimately supercedes the Scriptures. Here’s what I mean.
RS Belief: “Give me the man – and I’ll give you the Land. You can’t get the Man without the Wo-man”. This belief was developed out of bad experiences he had along the way… Now the technique is to secure the woman first? Helloooo…
That is trying to do the work of God in the Way of satan.
Scripture says: God goes to the man 1st, Satan goes to the woman 1st. Satan got Eve, and she got Adam. Eve was ‘quite deceived’. The woman can be deceived – IF you know how to do it (lead captive silly women 2 Tim 3) – and RS knows how. He actually believes it is the proper way to opperate. Why can’t people see the obvious problems with the entire approach? Talk about building on a bad foundation! (which he used to preach/teach against 10-15 yrs ago). Even If you achieve your goal this WAY, it is sure to come back to haunt you later when things fall apart. And people’s lives are destroyed in the process. God loves HIS people.
Someone who messes with kids and says “Don’t tell your parents” is called a pedophile. What is a religious leader, who is supposed to be a trusted man of God called when he messes with other men’s wives and says “Don’t tell your husbands”?
Most of the women who have experienced this kind of thing from RS probably wouldn’t talk about it, and if they did – would not relate the ‘gory details’ on a forum like this. I want to THANK YOU for being honest and open enough to let the readers get a glimpse of how things are. It’s not rocket science – unless a person is in idolatry and believes “men of god” are somehow above the rules when it comes to husb/wife boundaries…
I was personally asked by RS – in the van – in front of only a few other guys – about whether my wife and I enjoyed xxxx xxx. Me and 1 other guy were being asked specifically. I tried to laugh it off and change the subject… just guys in the locker room… but when RS started telling about his own marriage, and kept pressing us for info on ours (which we wouldn’t give), the other brother just bluntly said – ‘It’s none of you’re business and I’m not going to tell anyone about what me and my wife do’. (How uncomfortable was that?! You know that your ‘future’ in leadership/ministry depends on RS, remember?) We didn’t want to hear about RS and his wife, either. Thank goodness L’view wasn’t a very long ride! Of course, me and this other guy began to be pushed out of leadership. Those kind of conversations were just another strike against us, I suppose.
Dear Gutless Wonders,
I’d like to put a call out to any man who finds himself living under false, overbearing, religious authority. If you have gone against your own conscience with Christ regarding your family, in order to obey the rule of some religious church leader… Or – If you have allowed your wife or children to be adversly effected by someone in counseling under the guise of “spiritual authority”, then I am calling for Repentance. You know in your gut if you’ve ever done it.
You don’t need to post on this forum, or respond in some outward way to men. As a matter of fact, you need to stop that “cowardly submissive” thing that scripture mentions in Revelation. It is unmanly and ungodly. It’s that thing that drives you to worry about what men think of you, more than you are concerned with the well being of your family. You will irresponsibly let your family go without the things they need financially, in order to prove your loyalty to religious leaders. An “ata boy” from a church leader means more than the respect of your wife. This is so basic. Who cares about the approval of men? Be concerned with the Lord Jesus Christ. Listen to HIS voice. Allow God to return back to His rightful place. Jesus is the One who died for you – no one else. If someone besides Jesus is sitting on the throne of your life, then kick that usurper off and ask Jesus to sit back down in His rightful place.
You just need to get alone with God and confess your sin to Him. Realize that your lack of strength has put your family through pain they Never should have been exposed to. God never intended that. Tell the Lord you’ll never let it happen to your loved ones again. Then you need to get up and take action on your repentance. Change whatever situations need to be changed. Look at your options and make some manly decisions. That’s what Christian MEN do. They unapologetically obey Jesus Christ – with resolute boldness. Husbands, love your wives as Christ loves the Church. Don’t let other men scam you into selling out your wife. No man touches her but you. That’s how Jesus loves His Church. It is a Godly Jealously that rises up in you – when another man steps out of line with her. It is a Godly thing to aggressively take your place with your wife and family. Anyone who teaches otherwise is twisting the Word, and has wrong motives in his heart. Shake yourself and do what’s right. I know what I’m talking about. I had to repent as well. I finally got to the point that my own Gutlessness made me ‘Wonder’… I invite you to do something about your situation.
Signed, an X-’Gutless Wonder’
for me – I have fulfilled 99.999% of my Part. I have spoken to another former elder of CiM. We discussed if it may be our responsibility to see that every member sees the letter CH wrote. He only sent it to “selected elders”. As 2 elders at CiM who were dismissed unrighteously, it may be our last responsibility to inform the people of the problem as best we can. We haven’t decided yet.
I don’t have current addresses for members, but he has access to more recent info. It could be done.
–Doma is speaking of me. I have completed my effort of informing people about RS and CiM. God is telling me to move on. I was amazed at how many people from all over the USA and the world contacted me – primarily saying the same thing – ‘Thank you for saying what we already knew, but were unwilling to admit to ourselves. Thank you for giving specific examples and detailed info which made it impossible to talk ourselves out of believing what we knew, but couldn’t believe.’ I am done. I have ‘told it to the church’, I have marked, avoided, and even warned’… Now I’ve got more to do – others can continue if they believe the need remains.
In my opinion – This forum has done it’s duty and fulfilled it’s purpose. Now it has come to the end, and deserves a decent burial. – 12/8/2005 5:54 pm
Please note that Bruce believed the forum was done in Dec of 05, way before I ever said it.